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okay three I
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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri the
president is dead well not quite yet but
not for the want of trying long live the
president it's becoming quite a habit
first in the Ukraine and now in Egypt
president Muhammad mury barely got a
year with which to apply his Democratic
mandate before a military coup hiding
behind genuine popular grievances
overthrew him although General CeCe will
now be called the president he'll always
be the general to me and to most
Egyptians who boycotted his neither free
nor fair election in which he won I
suppose we could put that in quotes over
90% of the vote election or no election
General CCE had already been ruling the
country as the head of a military jenta
for nearly a year whilst mory's Year of
Living Dangerously in cairo's
presidential Palace was hardly a great
economic or political success he surely
doesn't deserve to be behind bars
accused of being the head of a terrorist
organization and of such unusual crimes
for an Arab president of collaborating
with the Palestinian resistance and what
message does it send to islamist
organizations that they can fight
Democratic elections they can even win
them but they will never be permitted to
rule at least Through The Ballot Box
joining us now to discuss the crisis in
Egypt is one of the Muslim world's most
important and most eloquent analysts
he's the head of the Cordoba Foundation
Dr anas alrti Dr anas thanks for joining
us it's farsal isn't it over 90% of the
vote but the most telling uh uh
circumstance is surely the huge numbers
of people who didn't vote at all well
George thank you very much for having me
on and uh you're absolutely right the
questions that you ask are absolutely
spot- on I mean the the fact of the
matter is that we're back to the bad old
days we're back to the 90% plus uh free
and fair votes um but as you rightly put
it the the actual story that is be even
being reported by the official uh media
outlets and broadcasters is a fact that
no one turned up uh to the extent that
um the reuter correspondent yesterday
was reporting from three main um
election posts and throughout those the
three hours through three and a half
hours that they were reporting tweeting
throughout only one person turned out
and this by the way was after the
government had extended extended the
elections for the third day third day
they said because it had been too hot it
been too hot and people were sort of
busy celebrating the atmosphere of the
elections and therefore they were a
little bit taken back and weren't ready
to go out and actually vote so it's um
it's nothing less than fical but then
again since the military coup
unfortunately we're back to how
the vast majority of the Arab world is
we're back to um the status quo we're
back to how certain regimes particularly
in the Gulf would love for things to be
in Egypt and Beyond and the actual
president is in prison yep uh facing
what by any stretch of the imagination
are capital charges in other words he
might be executed was the dictator that
the revolution overthrew is outside of
jail and uh whilst The General says he's
the heir of President nasar he is in
fact the heir of President Mubarak no
true in fact if anything then even the
official commentators um are all saying
quite clearly that we are now back to
times that are even worse in terms of
human rights in terms of freedoms in
terms of econ the economy everything uh
back to even worse than how they were in
early 2011 before Mubarak was outed by
the Egyptian Revolution so it's um it's
it's a funny State of Affairs and to be
absolutely honest whilst this looking at
the the Arab world over the past Century
you'd see well this is sort of PA of
course but what is strange is how the
so-called Democratic world the West is
reacting to all this because whilst we
have seen in front of our eyes in front
of you know hundreds of millions
billions in fact watching their screens
as a military coup actually unfolded
minute by minute the west then and
particularly our government here in the
UK chooses to actually look into and
investigate the victims the Muslim
Brotherhood whilst the world world
watches and does absolutely nothing it's
to be honest it's it's it's that that
really is is totally baffling speaking
of Human Rights the 700 people um for
death penalty that must be a joke yeah
they are not really going to be well
I'll tell you what I mean the numbers
are uh hilarious if not tragic uh on
their own account but if you actually
knew the details of how this was passed
it would become really you know beyond
funny um a court hearing that was for
less than 90 minutes uh precisely 86
minutes in which the judge managed to
look through the case of 527 on one
occasion then 638 on a second occasion
cases out of whom less than 15 people
ever saw the inside of that Court most
of and by the way amongst those sent
sentenced to death were people who had
already died one of them one of them by
the way was a Palestinian who had been
mared by an Israeli uh missile more than
seven years ago he was he was declared a
terrorist who had perpetrated certain
crimes the other thing is that all these
people were condemned to death and
condemned to hang because all of them
had killed one policeman we're talking
about unfortunately uh a part of the
world which uh nothing is independent
the Judiciary is totally politicized the
political is totally securitized and
everything is absolutely corrupt and
therefore the media of course now media
completely hegemonic 100% property as as
soon as within one hour I mean we can
talk about the shortcomings and the
failures of Mory all we want will
however within the 11 month that he was
in in rule not one single person was
arrested for their views and their
opinions not one single Media Station
was closed down or oppressed because
they were criticizing the president and
they were throughout those 11 months
within an hour of him being ousted 17
media stations were closed down more
than 312 journalists and media
spokespeople were arrested and within a
matter of 3 months we had more than
19,000 political prisoners it just tells
you what kind of situation we indeed it
it speaks uh volumes but we can't uh
elide uh the shortcomings of uh mory's
Administration it is a bit of a world
record all of this is world record
territory but it's a bit of a world
record to have won an election and have
so many people dislike you nothing like
the Absurd figures that are claimed of
course but clearly
Millions uh dislike you so much that
they're on the streets and creating the
cover for a military Jun to overthrow
you I think that there are a number of
things to be said first of all the Arab
Spring at the very height of it in early
2011 with the way in which the bin Ali
regime in Tunisia fell and then the hus
Mubarak regime
fell that brought with it uh an
incredible amount of Hope and aspiration
and maybe you know M and maybe you know
the naha in Tunisia maybe they were sort
of victims to that kind of high level of
aspiration and hopes people thought that
and they had the right to hope that you
know within a matter of days weeks maybe
maybe even a couple of months things
would be sorted out so when it took a
year or two years even and the problems
were still mounting and people were
still finding it difficult on a daily
level of course people got quite anxious
but you can't really put aside the fact
that a country that had been riddled
with corruption political military uh
economic on every single level for
decades you really realistically can't
expect things to change within a matter
of 11 months with all you know the kind
of
attempts some uh true some maybe for
populist reasons to reach out to engage
we had the very first cop vice president
in the history of Egypt we had the very
first vice president female in the
history of Egypt we had the very first
time that a president who had the chance
of appointing 52 members to the
consultative council from his own party
elected only to choose six whilst all
the others from all other parties but
that was never good enough for the
ideologues and you have to realize
George that all these changes happened
in Egypt and Tunisia all these things
happened in a region where democracy
Freedom the true will of people is to be
forbid is never to be spoken of I mean
when you have someone like Saudi Arabia
where the changes in egyp would totally
undermine it totally totally see that
its own rule its own existence is you
know totally without any kind of
justification without any kind of
credibility it it won't stay quiet
whilst this goes on and people have
their spent billions to try and bring
down uh president morsy no doubt now
General CeCe as I alluded earlier claims
that he's uh the new nasar or some of
his supporters do but nasar's rule was
characterized by three things first of
all total support for the Palestinian
people and opposition to Israel General
Cece
couldn't be closer to Israel and is
putting on trial president morsy for
collaborating with the Palestinian
resistance number two uh president nassa
tried to bring down the reactionary
feudal monarchies in the Gulf General
CeCe has received billions of dollars
from these very same reactionary feudal
monarchies and of course president
NASA's orientation was towards Moscow uh
and uh General cces is C L uh towards
the United States which despite a few
words from President Obama and the media
aftermath of the coup uh continues to
arm and finance absolutely uh the
military Jun so where do we go from here
well it's um I I think there are a
number of things that need to to happen
first of all inside Egypt the popular
Uprising is still ongoing every single
day there are protests in there dozens
if not hundreds on some occasions and
particularly in populated areas we are
seeing thousands hit the street despite
the fact that every single one of those
people who hit the streets will be
threatened in terms of their jobs their
welfare their security and probably
their lives um so we're still seeing
that and that to be honest is on the
increase not on the fall as many
including myself expected a few months
ago the other thing that regionally we
really have to see this idea this
concept of the Arab Spring through and
to be honest we need to see more change
happening on the streets of areas that
haven't directly been touched by the
Arab Spring including Gulf States
including the I mean really we need to
see some real change take place because
it's been proven now through Egypt and
largely through Tunisia that any kind of
change whether it be elections or
Democratic revolutions or
whatever those with money will see to it
that those are undermined and scuppered
so we need change regionally and I think
that there are signs that s such changes
is is taking place the third is we
really need to work here in the West in
the UK across the world in terms of
really shaming these governments I mean
the way I mean what you say is true
about Obama making certain protestations
just out of embarrassment because it's
it's been such an embarrassment in in
Egypt the way that this whole thing has
happened but actually the support has
been full and to be honest the only you
know the only thing that I put to people
is that the fact that Netanyahu and lo
and behold Tony Blair supported CC I
think tells us just about enough just
about thank you very much Dr anas coming
up after the break looking at China fast
becoming economically the most powerful
country in the world and thus inevitably
increasingly pillared by the Western
political class and their media Echo
chamber whose hegemony China threatens
we'll be right back
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welcome back to Sputnik Jude Woodward
knows more about China than almost
anybody else in this country she
frequently lectures there and is the
author of a forthcoming and much
anticipated book on the subject formerly
she was a very senior official in mayor
Ken Livingston's London Administration
and I'm glad to say she joins us now
Jude I was in a session at the haon Y
Festival last weekend uh where a
collection of so-called China experts
some of whom have done rather well uh
out of China uh not only didn't have
very many good things to see about China
but we very clearly getting into battle
mode uh all sorts of issues were raised
uh but one of the China experts rather
boldly predicted that China was going to
collapse is
it well uh there is a whole industry in
say China's economy is about to collapse
um the uh economists famously ran a
front page Dragon about to run out of
puff in 2002 so this has been the
prediction year on year you have a
ridiculous sort of approach that China's
economy is slowing which indeed it has
somewhat from its fastest rates of
growth but last year it grew at 7.7% I
think um they're anticipating 7.5 to
7.7% this year that is slower than eight
or nine or indeed 10% but the last
quarter's growth in the United States
was not
.1% so who is slowing who has got a
problem who's running out of BU yes but
it's uh it it's predicted or it's
predicated I should say these
predictions on a belief that uh that
nothing can be that successful for uh
for such a long time China Has Lifted
more people out of poverty than any
country any regime in all human history
in the past 30 years I suppose it's on
the principle that what goes up must
come down must it come down in China no
definitely not there's no re it will
slow sight slightly the population is
aging that will reduce growth by one or
2% a year but as long as it doesn't make
stupid errors the structure of
its economy is more effective than the
structure of the
West primarily the uh role of a very
large State sector particularly State
control over the banks and financial
systems uh so that coming out of the
financial crisis in 2008 China was in a
position to direct its banks to invest
in order to restimulate the economy and
get it out of Crisis which the West
pleaded with the banks to do this but
had no control to make them do it um
very high levels of investment in the
economy high levels of savings so unless
China makes some suicidal
mistake um and embarks on a vast program
of privatization of crucial sectors of
the economy
or gives into Western pressure for a
very large revaluation of the R&B or the
various things that the West demands
there's no reason why it can't maintain
a slower but considerably faster level
of growth than anything seen in the west
it's not of course China's not alone
Vietnam has also been growing rather
strongly based on a similar economic
structure but also if you look at the um
the period of most success of Japan for
example it had very high investment
levels which then came down and um it
hit financial crisis plus a big
revaluation of the end so as long as
China doesn't do any of these stupid
things which I believe are a product of
capitalist free market economies then
yeah you probably won't be surprised
then that both of these demands were
being made at the H on Wifi by
representatives of the very biggest
banks and uh other uh businesses doing
well in their trade uh and investment
with and in uh China instead China has
made this turn hasn't it recently
announced uh to more uh if you like uh
direction of capital to building up
itself to building up demand within
China less export driven more more
domestically oriented well it needs to
do that because World Trade is so
stagnant since the uh economic crisis
there was virtually no growth in China's
external trade in the first quarter of
the year but this is not really a
problem of China this is a problem of
the world economy there is virtually
there's no emergence from the great
stagnation at the level of the western
economies and so unless the Western
economies start to pick up and trade
starts to pick up there's no one to
export isn't that also partly due to the
fact that many plans that used to be in
China established with cheap labor has
all moved to Vietnam others well China
is moving up the value chain what that
means is that wage levels in China are
rising therefore is not the location of
choice for the most
lowlevel basic type of manufacturing but
at the same time China is moving up the
value chain and
increasingly um attracting other types
of business which requires higher levels
of technological it and other skills and
also developing its
own technology companies of course it's
not just the economy coming under Fire
the demand that China should be more
capitalist if it's going to continue to
grow and Thrive uh but just in case some
foreign policy issues and also some
internal ones are being dragged onto the
battlefield let's deal with the internal
one first in the sang Province where 40
to 45% of the people are weor
Muslims uh there is a a terrorist
problem suicide bombings mass killings
actually by these separatists and of
course a Chinese government Crackdown uh
on them suddenly we're beginning to hear
Western commentators discover a long
lost Sympathy for the plight of the
Wagers China on the right lines in how
it's handling this question there was a
an article in the New York Times today
or yesterday saying that the mess that's
been made of the situation in the Middle
East is that alqaeda forces are
spreading all over the
place um American intervention doesn't
defeat Al-Qaeda it just displaces and
and encourages it it and you have
and some that obviously China is
extremely worried as the Central Asian
republics are very worried of some
spillover of this type of uh development
into
to Jin Jang um it's taken a policy of
its policy from 2011 I think was I think
or 2010 was to direct very big levels of
investment towards Jin Jang to try and
grow The Province out of the problems
but to some extent that's created more
diff more problems
because there's been a lot of inflow of
population because there's um
growth in business factories or mineral
extraction Etc and not all of those jobs
have gone to the local
people so there are some economic
grievances which China is trying to
address and bring a lot of effort into
but at the same time there's been an
upsurge of you know quite horrible uh
knife attacks on people in
um Crim are real ET so there there's a
there sort of stepped up security at the
St same time I just uh briefly alas uh
China's border or territorial disputes
with Japan over Islands uh seems now to
be being replicated in a conflict with
Vietnam which is particularly sad for
people of uh Our Generation uh what's
the basis of that clash in with Vietnam
well remember there's bad blood and has
been bad blood between China and Vietnam
for a long time which is a very sad
thing and it is a product of a what was
an even sadder thing which was the whole
Soo Soviet conflict in the Cold War
period um where China became very after
falling out with Russia became very
fearful of being encircled by pro-
Soviet um regimes the dispute with
Vietnam is of long duration the it
looked looked
like it was got getting into a good
place Lea Jang visited Hanoi six months
ago things have calmed down enormously
over the last couple of years but then
China decided to start drilling for oil
now on China's side on
this everyone else is already drilling
for oil the only country that wasn't
drilling for oil in the disputed areas
was was China but
unfortunately either a misjudgment or a
deliberate um Step by drilling where
they chose to drill it was a straight
flare up with Vietnam well let's hope
they can iron things out Jude Woodward I
told you she was an expert thank you
very much
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indeed and now it's your turn to tell us
what you think through the portals of
social media what's rattling gy well
about the Egyptian elections we asked
well first it was Ukraine and now Egypt
how does the West gets away with this
Eddie Bernard answers EU countries can't
think beyond the Yankee dollar and are
us lap dogs they choose US policy before
their own and Greg bin says too much too
often they call it selfdetermination a
unique brand of US foreign policy indeed
indeed it is yes but the med silence is
uh more striking I keep saying This I
Know Why the political leaders prefer
General CeCe in charge because well they
pay him and he'll do what they want them
to what I fail to understand is how all
these journalists hundreds of them in
all countries are able to completely
suspend judgment that they would
normally be quick to make in other
circumstances so that uh you know a coup
in Ukraine a coup in Egypt becomes
something that they welcome rather than
condemn well that's why you're apply
describing as the media Echo chamber
yeah on China we ask when they will put
up their political weight in the world
to which we received quite a lot of
hostile response on their domestic
issues regarding human rights in some
areas and of course it not being a
democracy officially so will this be a
Chinese Century to which Neil barington
answers I think so went to a debate on
that very subject and without a huge sec
sacrifices of the Mao era would have
never been possible well let's hope it's
a
multi-polar uh Century that's what I'm
hoping for indeed and that's all we have
time for which sadly means that's the
end of the show please do keep in touch
with us on Twitter at rtor Sputnik and
please like us on Facebook at Sputnik on
Russia today goodbye from me gatri and
from me George Galloway it's been
marvelous
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oh
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